Building a Stronger Public Defense Workforce

Discover how the Michigan Indigent Defense Commission is strengthening the public defense system by supporting attorneys, improving training, and building a stronger workforce to better serve Michigan residents.
https://michiganidc.gov/

Transcript

Anastasha Osborn 0:20

Welcome back to LARA Living Room Podcast, where we bring you conversations about the people, programs, and services that impact Michiganders every day. I'm your host, Anastasia Osborne, and today we will be taking a closer look at the Michigan Indigent Defense Commission, or MIDC. While many people may not be familiar with MIDC or the work it does, the Commission plays an important role in Michigan's justice system by supporting public defense services across our state. From establishing standards and providing resources to administering grant funding and working with local partners, MIDC is focused on strengthening public defense and improving access to justice for all Michigan residents. Now joining me today is Kristen Saley, who is the Executive Director of MIDC. And we'll talk about what MIDC does, how the commission is structured, the people behind the work, and the resources available to both legal professionals and the public. But before we get started, you know the drill. Go ahead and fill up your coffee or drink of choice, grab a seat, and get comfortable because you are now in the Lara living room. Kristen, welcome to the podcast.

Kristen Staley 1:24

Hi, thanks for having me.

Anastasha Osborn 1:25

Yes, so this is such an important topic. I think that really impacts a lot of communities across Michigan. So I'm excited to learn more about the work that you do and the work that your commission does. So let's start kind of with some basic information. What is the Michigan Indigent Defense Commission? And actually a question I have is what does indigent defense actually mean?

Kristen Staley 1:43

Sure. So the Michigan Indigent Defense Commission, we are an independent agency that is responsible for creating funding and supporting the statewide standards for the delivery of public defense services or indigent defense services. You can use them interchangeably.

Anastasha Osborn 2:02

Okay.

Kristen Staley 2:03

Across the state of Michigan. We are the entity that, like I said, we - we we set up standards. We provide grant funding to our local systems to help them come into compliance with these standards. And we also provide staff help and technical assistance for the development of best practices as this grant funding is used and the systems come into compliance to ensure that public defense is delivered constitutionally and effectively across the state.

Anastasha Osborn 2:36

Yeah. And so when we're talking about indigent defense, what does that mean? So that means like if people is that just all attorneys? Are all defense attorneys?

Kristen Staley 2:46

No, that's a great question. So there is actually a definition of indigent standard that we created that defines what it means to qualify for an attorney for a public defender. For us, it is a if you are already meeting other types of state assistance, levels of assistance, or if you are living at the federal poverty level of 200% or lower, you qualify presumptively. You also qualify if you are currently incarcerated, if you are under the age of 18, and then there's also what we it's a balancing test, where we balance the substantial hardship it would be for a person to retain an attorney, private counsel, balanced with that person's living expenses or dependence at home, even taking into account how what type of case it is, the severity of the charge, there's a difference between uh a traffic misdemeanor, length of a case versus a homicide. The two would take well difference.

Anastasha Osborn 3:50

Yeah.

Kristen Staley 3:50

Um and so there's a factors test that can also be applied.

Anastasha Osborn 3:54

All right, good to know. Yeah. And so talking a little bit about the commission, I want to kind of talk about the you know, the structure of the commission itself. So can you kind of explain to our listeners um kind of how it's structured, how many people are part of the commission, and like your as a staffing?

Kristen Staley 4:09

Sure. Um so we have 18 governor-appointed commissioners, um uh, and a 19th who is the the reserve seat for the Supreme Court, uh Supreme Court Chief Justice from Michigan. Um our members make up really a broad swath of stakeholders that you would work with uh in the criminal legal system. Okay. Um so that includes public defenders or criminal defenders themselves. Um also we have a seat for the prosecution, we have seats for judges in the circuit court, for district court judges, we have a seat for the general public. We have a seat that uh represents minority bar associations, the state bar association, um uh a state budget office seat, um, a seat for the Michigan Association of Counties and the Michigan Association of Um Townships. Okay. Um so really across the board.

Anastasha Osborn 5:00

Yeah, that's great. Because then that way you have a lot of different perspectives too from all these commissioners. Um so that way you guys making sure you're being fair and and encompassing everything, which I love. Um so you kind of said you mentioned prosecutors or um, so or do you guys I know defense is in your name, but is it just defense or is it also prosecutors?

Kristen Staley 5:18

Uh no, just defense. Um uh prosecution is funded locally. Um and so yes, it's a the one of the the one of the reasons why the commission exists and when it was created in 2013 um is because the state wasn't feeling its oblig its constitutional obligation to provide um uh effective uh counsel for for those who qualify for public defense. And so it is a it's a state's responsibility under the U.S. and state constitution. Um that responsibility is not the same for prosecution, however, obviously it exists in every locality.

Anastasha Osborn 5:54

Okay. Um and are there other commissions like yours that um are in other states?

Kristen Staley 5:58

Yes, there are. Um we actually modeled uh we modeled ourselves um after uh this the work that's being done in the state of Texas and and um New York State. Okay. Um both have a commission very similar to ours, although there was slight differences all across the board, you know. No state is the same. Yeah.

Anastasha Osborn 6:15

Yeah. Okay. And um staffing, do you guys have staffing within the commission outside the commission members?

Kristen Staley 6:22

Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. In fact, so uh uh all those commission members are volunteer or they're appointed. So they're not appointed by the governor. Yeah, they're appointed by the governor. It is a volunteer position for all of them. So um and we the commission this year we're meet we are meeting four times a year. In past years we've met six, it has to be so at least four meetings a year. Okay. Um yes, uh really awesome, strong but mighty, um small but mighty team of 18. I could use about 18 more of them. Uh but no, we're we're a fantastic group. Um our team is split, um uh having I would say about a third or more of a field staff. Okay. Um and then the remainder of our staff are um uh Lansing based is their home base. Okay. And so the field staff cover, we split the state up into six regions. Um Northern, which encompasses all the UP and a bit of the lower peninsula, um, northern lower peninsula, we have mid-Michigan, which is kind of across the middle, western Michigan, um, South Central, which is really your, you know, Lansing, Jackson, Genesee, uh Livingston County, and Ann Arbor. Um, Wayne County itself is is this is a region. Um and uh and then we have uh coverage in Oakland, Macomb, Le Pierre and St. Clair counties. So and the read they're set up that way because our we work with our local, we call them local funding units. So um we provide um so our standards apply to every local um funding unit of a trial court system. And so the reason, for example, Wayne County is one and of itself, there are I think about 25 district courts. Don't quote me on that. Thanks. Um I'm sure I'm getting it wrong. Yeah, there's about 25 or so district courts in Wayne County, and then there's the Wayne County uh County Circuit Court, which is its own entity.

Anastasha Osborn 8:12

Okay.

Kristen Staley 8:12

And so each one of those is what we would deem a funding unit.

Anastasha Osborn 8:15

Okay. And actually, I was gonna ask because I did see on your website um that you guys have um kind of a grant funding program. Um so I kind of want to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about that. Sure, sure, sure.

Kristen Staley 8:25

Yeah, no, and I know I touched a little bit on it already. Um so every, like I said, every funding unit has to comply, um, trial court funding unit has to comply with these standards that our commission has set. Um and the the standards are fairly basic. Um they do follow best practices for the American Bar Associations. Um there's things like attorneys must be trained and qualified, they must show up to all the significant stages, they must meet with their clients in a timely and confidential manner. Um, all of the things you would hope that your attorney would be doing anyway. Um unfortunately, before we we existed, that was not the case. Um and so what that means, you know, and the state of Michigan, we do not have unfunded mandates in our state. Okay. So this granting program is a requirement of these local systems to comply with these standards. So that means if the local system is not already able to do it and they need funding to help, then we provide funding and resources. So our funding is provided to local systems in grant format. Um, it's an annual grant. Um it is something that we review, it's a big, big, big part of our job. Um we have a grants team, we have a research team, uh, we have um a training division on our staff, uh, and all of our regional managers, those are field staff. Every year we all work hand in hand to make sure that those compliance plan grants that come in are reviewed by our staff and then reviewed again through various like levels of staff. Everybody takes a peek and then it goes through various committees of our commission and then the commission itself reviews it. It is a month-long process. In fact, just last week we had our big it always typically happens in June on our June meeting where we're the commission approves the grants. Um, okay. I was gonna ask kind of the timeline for those. Yeah, so it's it's tricky. We have to try and balance it with the timing of the state appropriations process because it is month, you know, it's it's all through general fund dollars that comes through through that process. And so um, like I said, the so with these grants, local systems have to um show us a um write a written plan of how they're gonna comply with our standards, and if they need access funding over uh what we call a local share of public defense dollars to comply with these standards, then they can ask for a grant.

Anastasha Osborn 10:46

Okay. Yeah. Um a question just popped into my head. I was just thinking about as you're kind of talking through all of this, and I kind of want to hear a little bit about you, and I'm sure the listeners want to hear a little bit about your background, um, how you got into this line of work and um yeah, just explaining your background more.

Kristen Staley 11:01

Yeah. Um well I've been with the commission since 2017. I was I was hired by the commission. Okay. Um uh during a public commission meeting, so that's fun um to have your job interview be public. Yeah. Um was it recorded? Yeah. Oh, yeah, you can go find it if you'd like. Um everyone else who applied and was interviewed were you know, it's all public meetings. So that's what we do. Um yeah. Uh prior to this, so I've been director, uh I was uh hired in 2022. Prior to that, I was a regional manager for uh the type of field staff that we talked about. So um so there's that. Um but prior to me coming on uh in 2017, I worked for um I did a lot of nonprofit um uh work and and public policy advocacy work, all in the realm of um, you know, both youth and and criminal legal system form um in public service.

Anastasha Osborn 11:55

Um it's incredible work. I mean, just your resume alone is just incredible. So thank you for all that work.

Kristen Staley 12:01

Yeah, sure, of course.

Anastasha Osborn 12:02

Yeah. Um the standards we kind of were talking about before this, um, how many standards are there? Yeah, there are nine standards. Nine standards total. Okay.

Kristen Staley 12:11

Yes. Um wanted to go through them. Yeah, do it. Okay, all right, let's let's uh um so first standard is uh attorney training. So uh every attorney who um takes assigned cases and works in public defense, they are required a minimum of 12 hours a year of training. Um fun fact uh the state of Michigan is one of four states. If you're a licensed attorney, you are not required by the state bar to be trained at all. So but if you're a public defender, you are. So thanks to Standard One for the first time. Well, there we go. There you go. Um so yeah, so that was a pretty big change. Yeah, it's huge. Um and training is it is extremely cost effective. It can be very inexpensive or free, um, but is massive in terms of culture change and longevity and keeping people like connected to each other. You know, it's just fantastic work um to see that kind of thing grow. It's it's absolutely critical to ensure that we are able to sustain the work and keep people wanting to be interested in doing this this type of uh of uh this career. So um I went down a path. So they're standard two. Standard two. Okay, I'll roll myself back in. Um standard two is um about uh attorney um attorney meetings, uh client meetings, so that they must be confidential and time done timely. Okay. Um uh standard three is ensuring that there is um adequate funding for expert and investigative um services um related to trial work. This goes kind of hand in hand when I was talking about judicial independence. Typically, it would be um before us, you would have to ask the judge in public court um, I need X amount of dollars for this expert. And you know, the prosecutor doesn't have to do that, you know, the retained counsel doesn't have to do that, and what's happening there is that you're actually providing in open court your trial strategy and they can say no to the money. Gotcha. Before that just goes against you know constitutional due process and all that kind of stuff, so it's huge that we have this. Yeah um we actually had to train attorneys on how to use independent investigators and you know, where to find the best experts for X, Y, and Z. So um standard four, um, when uh this is um counsel at all critical stages, so and specifically counsel at first appearance. So this is a huge change. Um we now require that there is an attorney from the very first court hearing, which is called an arraignment. Okay. Um an arraignment is, I mean, if you watch Law and Order or whatever, right? It's sure, yeah. Um yeah, it's where a person first comes into court, the charge is read, um, you put a plea on um the record, uh, you know, guilty, not guilty, whatever, and um, you know, uh a a bond is assessed, you know, whether the person is to be detained, awaiting um hearings, or if they are to be released. So it was a big change. Um, and as you might imagine, if you were that person walking in and had no advocate by your side, how hard that might be.

Anastasha Osborn 15:10

Yeah, or even just trying to understand, um, because I'm sure there's a lot of jargon that's used that you may not understand. Of course, you know, so unless you're in in that field of work. So of course.

Kristen Staley 15:19

Um uh standard five is judicial independence, which I've talked about. Uh standard six is our caseload, attorney caseload standard. Okay. Uh this is uh newly being implemented last year. Um we went a little out of numerical order when we were implementing the standards. But six and seven were the last two. Um six is caseloads, seven is attorney qualifications and review. Um caseloads, we um look, this is a job where people get burnt out real fast. And uh so the caseload standard uh caps an attorney to being allowed to only take 150 um felonies and 400 misdemeanors a year. In some places that's crazy.

Anastasha Osborn 16:03

Who would that even still feel like a lot?

Kristen Staley 16:05

Yeah, I was just gonna say that you're right. In some places that never even happens, right? I mean in a really small place or small areas or rural areas. In others, attorneys were working three times that.

Anastasha Osborn 16:15

Yeah.

Kristen Staley 16:15

Um, and just it not only just individually for that person and it's the high burnout rate, also, you know, that means that the client's not really getting a fair shake from that person who's representing them, right? They're not taking time to research and thoroughly advocate all of these things which are part of, you know, if you're a licensed attorney, you have um ethical responsibilities to um be focused on the case in front of you and give adequate time and resources. Um so you know, it's it's but we are dealing in it's not just Michigan. Nationally we have an attorney shortage. Um not just public defense and public service work in general. Um I think if you had the prosecutors or civil legal aid in here to talk about that, they'd say the same thing. Yeah, but this is required because it is about due process and the constitutional right of ensuring that we have effective assistance of counsel.

Anastasha Osborn 17:09

Right.

Kristen Staley 17:10

Um and so that goes hand in hand with also our standard seven, which is ensuring that the attorneys not only have a a low a um a workable caseload, that also they're qualified for the cases that they receive um assignments for. Okay. Um meaning that you you don't just have a bar license in a in a heartbeat and then you get a homicide case, right? And so it's and we've been working, and again, uh we started implementing the uh the standards and mandating them slowly. Um and the reason that standards six and seven were late uh later into the game uh is because again, we have attorney shortages, sometimes it's just by necessity, right? That we need to have somebody who is maybe a little greener or has a little less experience. Um training really helps with that. We have mock trial training skills programs that we've been offering. We accept uh that if a person, you know, you have to have a certain amount of uh trials under your belt before you can take your high-level felony cases under the standard. But there's a lot of ways to to kind of move up the food chain, if you will. Um, whether it's like getting mentoring or second seats from uh attorneys who are more seasoned and following them and shadowing them in certain cases and things like that. So I'm very happy to say though, the majority, by the time we got to implementing that standard, the majority of attorneys that are taking cases were qualified for the high-level cases. Yeah, so it's really great. Um so there's so there's that. And then standard eight is attorney pay. So we ensure that attorneys are being compensated um reasonably, um, that the work is not being disincentivized, which was happening. Okay. Um again, before we existed, we found you know, uh attorneys were losing money in some instances and taking this work and doing this work. That um they were a place that it was purely just you couldn't make a living wage off of doing this work. Where in certain some of our really busiest uh you know high caseload counties and systems, it would be um the struct the pay structure would be something what it's called a fee for service. So $50 a motion or $700 for a trial. Um it doesn't matter how much time and effort you put into it or how long it is.

Anastasha Osborn 19:24

It's a flat rate.

Kristen Staley 19:25

Just it's a flat rate. Um you wouldn't get paid for for um visiting your client in jail. You wouldn't get paid. So if you're not gonna get paid to do these things, it's not that people don't have a passion for the work, but they should be reasonably compensated. And it shouldn't be pitting them against the work and the client themselves. And again, it's it's not prev and not allowing effective assistance of counsel to happen to occur.

Anastasha Osborn 19:46

Yeah, and I would assume it makes it very competitive to just take a job somewhere else then instead of going into this type of work. Absolutely.

Kristen Staley 19:52

How in the world do you keep people wanting to do this? Um so yes, and so we finally have a minimum uh bare minimum hourly wage. Okay um and if you are um an hourly contractor, and then an and if you're uh salaried employee of one of the 39 public defender offices, oh I'm sure I'm getting that wrong too. Um 38 or 39, but and we have yeah. Um you uh the attorney the attorney's wage has to be um the guideline is that it should be equivalent to the attorney general's a like it uh of that same type of employee status. So we use the state of Michigan wage scales for that as guidelines.

Anastasha Osborn 20:37

Interesting, and that information made me think, and I think in an earlier conversation when I actually asked you to be a guest on this podcast, um, you said something to me and I had a realization I did not know this was that you guys don't actually staff attorneys. So can you explain just for our listeners kind of how that works and what your relationship is then and how you kind of work with them with the commission?

Kristen Staley 20:58

Yeah, um when our at when our governing act was created in 2013, um a big component of it, um, and it remains the case today, is is having uh ensuring that local control um is important. Um and and I do understand that. So there was a choice made um to create a commission and not a statewide public defender office, to have a commission that did not also have an arm of um uh providing counsel and direct representation. We in our appellate of for example in comparison in our appellate work, we do have what's called the state appellate defender's office or SATO. Um they are a law firm, um, a state-funded law firm. Um they do provide direct representation and they also maintain a roster of attorneys who are contractors.

Anastasha Osborn 21:44

Okay.

Kristen Staley 21:45

Um in the trial world, we don't have that. Um, but for us, uh, you know, there's always more trial cases, trial level cases and appeals. Um the choice was made to have that creation where we don't uh have direct representation, so we're not a law firm. Yeah. We don't provide that work. It is it does get very complicated, especially for those folks who are just the general public looking to call, like, where's my attorney? I need help. Um we get quite a few quite uh calls and of you know needing assistance.

Anastasha Osborn 22:17

And then really, I kind of want to just end this, unless there was anything else you wanted to add, but I did want to end on one um kind of question, I guess, as to close us out, and that is um when you think about the future of public defense here in Michigan, you know, what gives you the most optimism about it?

Kristen Staley 22:34

Yeah.

Anastasha Osborn 22:36

A loaded question, I know.

Kristen Staley 22:38

Oh, it's great. The next the next step for us is to we only work with adult populations. So our next step is expand our work into um the judital uh court system, and so that we'd be able to create or expand our current standards um into youth defense work because that's a population that the those attorneys, those practitioners, they don't have what we have for the adult population of practitioners. And so, you know, they're the ones who aren't resourced. Doesn't mean the constitutional doesn't apply to those clients. You know, um kids have a right to to counsel and due process in all delinquency hearings. So um that's the future for us.

Anastasha Osborn 23:18

Yeah. You know, I think also you get them when they're younger, you get the the young the younger population, and you also give them those resources and that network, and then you know, that kind of will hopefully stop the domino effect.

Kristen Staley 23:30

That's that's the goal here. I'm I've always been trying to work to uh take myself out of business.

Anastasha Osborn 23:34

So well, hopefully not anytime soon. Sure. Um well perfect. Well, I appreciate you being here. I really do. Um, and for being on the podcast, this was your first time on the podcast, so I appreciate you making the time. I know you are very busy and you do a lot of important work, so thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. This was seriously such a fun conversation. I absolutely loved having Kristen on the podcast. She is honestly such a delight and so fun and easy to talk with. And I hope that you learned just as much as I did about what MIDC does and all the incredible work that they are doing to really help improve Michigan's justice system and also just getting a better understanding too of the people behind the work. So everything from you know our commissioners to the staff and the many professionals, even who are dedicated in this line of work to serving our communities. So thank you to all of you who do this type of work. It is incredible, and I can see the impact. So I encourage you, as our listeners, to learn more about MIDC. You can check out our show notes. I have their website linked in there. Read more about them. You can also check out the resources that are available. And before I close out, I also want to thank everyone for listening to the Lar Living Room Podcast. We truly couldn't do it without you listening and tuning in and being interested to learn more about our department. So thank you so much from our living room to yours. We'll see you next time.